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pennyhebginbarnes



Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 9
Location: Wilmslow, Cheshire

PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well it's nice to find something a bit more challenging to do on Boxing Day than lounging in front of the TV.

Perhaps a 19th-c specialist could suggest a likely date or even the workshop which could have produced this? Being a medievalist I don't know these sort of details but it would be interesting to find out.
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victorrothman



Joined: 01 Jan 1970
Posts: 30
Location: New York, USA

PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Francis Seymour Conway married Isabella Fitzroy and one of their children was Elisabeth, born in 1754. The date on my window. So I am guessing that the window was made at an anniversary of that date. 1854 or 1904.
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tonybenyon



Joined: 01 Jan 1970
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1854 would be the correct anniversary date if you consider this early 19th century or 'Georgian' style of glass painting was being replaced with the 'new improved' linear 13th century approach from the mid 1850's onwards.

Without the rest of the panel it becomes a matter of identifying the glass painter rather than the designer or workshop, but I'd say the cheque was paid out to the prolific William Wailes of Newcastle upon Tyne - if only for the green glass used in the scroll.

No doubt someone has a photograph of the exact same figure used in another window by an entirely different firm.
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keithhill



Joined: 01 Jan 1970
Posts: 18

PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The techniques used for the coat of arms might provide a clue.
It looks as though blue enamel has been used; also a deep 'Peckitt-like' stain.
Maybe the glass is pre-Victorian - could the 1754 date be right after all?


My attachments (sorry they are sideways on) show detail from one of the Great Witley windows by Joshua Price - made around 1720 - re-located from Cannons in Edgware.
The brush treatment of the wing is quite similar, as is the large area of blue.
I think Josh Price was probably dead by 1754 but Wm Price (the younger) was still working at that time (died 1765 aged 62 - source J A Knowles)



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tonybenyon



Joined: 01 Jan 1970
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've just written an extensive and profound piece on the problems with dating from photographs - and deleted the lot by mistake. Honestly. I'm not having a good start to the year.

Vic, can you post a bucket of cold water, take some close up photos of the head, feet and heraldry? Did the glass arrive in pieces, if so how thick are they, how are they grozed, do they have back painting or couverte, are they numbered with an engraving tool? Any original leads and did you have a good Christmas? All the usual stuff.

Willy Wailes it isn't but late baroque Price it isn't either.

Keith, I also had something really interesting to say about your appearance on the Antiques Roadshow. Gone forever, shame.

Let's see if this works
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keithhill



Joined: 01 Jan 1970
Posts: 18

PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with Tony - it's as difficult as spotting a genuine antique on a TV programme.

Vic: If the figure was leaded up when you bought it did you look for an inscription in the lead-heart?
It might be only a couple of initials, maybe a full name, a year-date - or just the milling marks - but worth checking.
What type/size of lead - was it that flimsy stuff with paper-thin flanges?

I know I have been flogging a dead horse on this subject - see earlier 'window lead' posting on this forum - but it is well worth looking.
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victorrothman



Joined: 01 Jan 1970
Posts: 30
Location: New York, USA

PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I bought the figure in pieces. I "designed" the diamonds and red border. There was no original lead. The inscription is painted on "cathedral" glass. I have yet to find a date when "cathedral" glass was introduced. My guess was in the late 1800's. Which is one reason why I originally dated (first post) as late 19th or early 20th century. The rest of the glass is "antique". As with antique glass the thickness varies from about 1/16" - 1/4". Edges appeared to be grozed with pliers.
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victorrothman



Joined: 01 Jan 1970
Posts: 30
Location: New York, USA

PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The coat of arms is red on clear flashed glass. Acid etched and painted with silver stain ,blue enamel and black matting. The top of section (above thin lead)is a new replacement that a friend of mine made.
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keithhill



Joined: 01 Jan 1970
Posts: 18

PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's useful information.
What looked to me like a deep Peckitt stain in the original photo was in fact a flashed red glass.
Shame there was no original lead.
The new piece in the coat of arms looks like an excellent match.
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tonybenyon



Joined: 01 Jan 1970
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Next year we should run a christmas quizz, maybe with a prize.

Vic, we're back to the length of a piece of string, it depends on what type of cathedral glass it is. The really early cathedral is very rare because so much of it has been thrown away. James Hartley was up and running and manufacturing cathedral glass in Sunderland by the arly 40's and without seeing it first hand I'd say the mouth blown glass was not paper thin and was probably made post 1835ish and its really from then on that acid was used on flash glass rather than ruby being obtained by staining kelp glass.

I would say the your figure is rooted in Georgian glass painting but that it was manufactured after the start of the Neo Gothic Revival. If the heraldry had been painted in the 1830s using kelp glass it would have been better executed.

The fact is that styles overlap and Georgians rubbed shoulders with Neo Goths for some years, so identification and specific dating becomes uncertain. I'm sticking with the 1840' & early 50's at the latest, but then again that period of glass is rare and you bought well.

I'm still confident that someone, somewhere will have photographed a similar piece with the background intact making it possible to identify the maker but then again late 18th & early 19th century glass is the most under reasearched of all periods.

Mediaevalists have been breeding like rabbits of late and its impossible to open a cupboard door without half a dozen falling out - although, of course, excellent ones like Penny HB are still uncommon - (there is no common in Wilmslow) - but late 18th & early 19th century historians are as rare as gnats teeth.

Contentious enough for you?
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pennyhebginbarnes



Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 9
Location: Wilmslow, Cheshire

PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tonybenyon wrote:
Next year we should run a christmas quizz, maybe with a prize.


Seriously, that is a good idea. There are various requests for info in this category which I'm sure members of the BSMGP would be able to answer if they just looked at this board. Maybe something like an online quiz with prize would get a few more people aware of it?

tonybenyon wrote:
Mediaevalists have been breeding like rabbits of late and its impossible to open a cupboard door without half a dozen falling out - although, of course, excellent ones like Penny HB are still uncommon - (there is no common in Wilmslow)


I don't know what cupboards you've been looking into to find this surfeit of medievalists, Tony! but I'd be touched if it wasn't for the fact that you know I'm probably the only medievalist who visits this board - which makes me worth keeping on side to field occasional queries... Smile
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tonybenyon



Joined: 01 Jan 1970
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking at my bookshelves, rather than into my cupboards, I can see volumes on 19th century glass vastly outnumbered by those on ye olden glass and a glance at the Journal reviews tells the same story - yet mediaeval windows in England vastly outnumber 19th century windows and glaziers conserving glass are far more likely to be work on the latter than the former.

For example no books have even been written about the three main Victorian studios of Clayton & Bell; Heaton Butler & Bayne and Laver, Barraud & Westlake who manufactured many thousands of windows between them - I donít count the publication of Mrs SBM Bayne on HB&B because itís not regarded as a serious publication - while America is positively awash with books on Tiffany alone.

More depressingly Martin Harrisonís pioneering book on Victorian Stained Glass was published over 30 years ago and even that started three decades into the 19th century

So, trying to find material to help assist Vic just compounded my frustration.

However, talking about Medievalists, I must give a mention to Carola Hicks book on the history of the glass in Kings College Chapel which reads very much like Peter Ackroyds book on London. It was even serialised on Radio 4 over Christmas and made excellent listening - something I thought Iíd never say about a window
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pennyhebginbarnes



Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 9
Location: Wilmslow, Cheshire

PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps medievalists can be a bit more prolific because they get slightly more financial encouragement than Victorian specialists but all that amounts to is a slightly larger slice of a minuscule cake. We should be combining forces to ask for more funding rather than disputing the distribution of the existing pittance. But sadly itís probably pointless in a country where funding to the William Morris gallery is being slashed to save a measly 56K by one London borough while others are blowing the entire British GNP on the Olympics.

I admit thereís a striking lack of publications on Victorian glass, but Iím not quite sure why that is. Itís not simply financial (& I should know, as someone whoís very seldom paid for anything I write about stained glass). Surely the old attitude that 19th-c glass isnít worthy of study isnít still widespread enough to discourage potential students today? Much medieval glass scholarship in the UK has been undertaken by scholars in other fields straying into it, or by enthusiastic self-taught amateurs like the late Maurice Ridgway. Where are their equivalents in the field of 19th-c glazing? - canít they be found & encouraged? Otherwise weíll just have to hope that more eminent mollusc specialists will be prepared to devote their retirements to the subject!
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